Transcription:
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
Well, good afternoon everyone. Thank you so much for all this time. I'm sure you were all having a great networking, but let's move to another great topic, which is a sponsorship and mentorship. And we were just talking at the back state that you've been touching base on the points previously in all the talks. Now is the point to delve into the details, right? We have this great opportunity, so I'm going to let each of the panelists introduce themselves and tell us a bit about their journey in insurance and how mentorship and sponsor have quickly helped them. Cilsy please.
Cilsy Harris (
I'm Cilsy Harris. I'm from the Hanover Insurance Group. We're a PNC property and casualty carrier based in Massachusetts. For me, it is all about how we advance our careers and sponsorship and mentorship along with good coaching and individual development planning. All of that is about how we advance our women and our men in our organization. So it is absolutely critical to your career.
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
Ann,
Ann Allen (
Thank you. I'm Ann Allen and I am from MassMutual Life Insurance Disability. We are based out of Massachusetts and I've been with the company 24 years. I have been very lucky to have wonderful mentors and sponsors to help promote my career and open doors that normally wouldn't have an opened if I didn't have those relationships. So I'm excited to talk about this topic.
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
Valerie?
Valerie Turpin (
I'm Valerie Turpin. I'm the Chief Underwriting Officer Property for Arch Insurance, part of Arch Capital. We are a global PNC insurance company. I've been with this company almost six years now and I had also the great privilege to work with wonderful mentors and sponsors who helped me to be here today and I'm really very happy also to give back now as a mentor, but also I'm the executive sponsors of the early carrier program that we have launched several years ago at Art Insurance.
Rachael Hudson (
Great. Great. Hi, I am Rachael Hudson. I lead the data and analytics division at Bridge Specialty Group, which is wholesale division of Brown and brown insurance. I've been with the company for almost 14 years, held a variety of roles and I absolutely would not be leading a data and analytics team if it weren't for the coaches, mentors, and sponsors that I have had in my life at this company and externally along the way. I'm excited to talk about it today.
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
In my case, I'm Mireia Rojo Arribas. I am the VP of Advance Analytics at MAPFRE Insurance and something that has been pivotal in my career has been the me and sponsorship I got. So super important topic. Okay, so we know that mentorship and sponsorship really play a key role. So cel, how do you differentiate between a mentor and a sponsor and how they compliment each other in career development in the insurance industry?
Cilsy Harris (
The last panel they talked about your board of directors and I love that term. Every one of us should have a board of directors and on that you should have a sponsor, a mentor, a trusted colleague, a wise elder, all of these things you need, but let's just talk about sponsorship and mentorship. A sponsor is somebody who puts their political capital on the line for you. It is really important in this talk that we're going to talk about you empathizing and focusing on who that person is and the relationship you're building. So that person is so invested in who you are and where you're going that they are putting their reputation on the line. It is super important that you take that away and understand that they're willing to do that for you. A mentor on the other hand, also cares for you. They should have great empathy for you and your journey, but they are giving you advice and counsel based on their experience and hoping that you will take that forward if you happen to have a coach in your life. Your coach is all about your potential and helping you unleash the potential on the journey yourself, and they're with you for that. So that's the distinction between the roles, but each one of them is invested in you in a different way and it's really important you understand that.
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
And you've mentioned they both are important overall for women to really make progress. So for all of you, how important a role do you have that played in your career and how do you think that the sponsors can help address the gender bias or does massing through the glass ceiling? Who wants to start Ann?
Ann Allen (
Sure, I'll start. So I think that we don't always realize that sponsors are looming around us when you're presenting, when you're speaking, when you're influencing, and sometimes it's organically grown, it just happens naturally. So I have found myself in situations that as others spoke about in previous panels where you don't think you did such a great job and then somebody mentions it a week or a month or six months later and lo and behold that person is your sponsor. So I think those are the situations that I've encountered.
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
Valerie, do you have another perspective?
Valerie Turpin (
I have the opportunity to have several sponsors. One of them was the person who bring me to the United States for a job, and that was a sponsor that I didn't look for, but she was a very executive level person in the United States for the company. I was working previously and I was a French person working in the French subsidiary of the company. And because of that, my management assumed that I wanted to stay in my country and I was not interested into an international opportunity. And I met with her on a conference like this one and I told her that I would actually love to spend some times to have an international career and develop my knowledge about other markets. And when she went back to the US, she gave my name when a position was opened. So I was not really looking for a sponsor, but I found this person who was an executive person and I was really willing to know her.
(
My intent when I met with her was to ask a question about how she succeed in the career, how she get in the position she had. But on the same time, I think I was probably selling myself on the same time because I was asking her question, I was curious and attentive and listening. So we created this bond, but she didn't really know whether I was good at my job or not or not, but that was sufficient to give my name when a position was open. On the other end, I was in a leadership program development in a previous company and then I had an assigned sponsor who was the CIO of the company at the time, and me an underwriter. I was a little bit surprised that I was matched by a CIO. However, this person was very, very committed to his function and he invited me to meet both members of the company.
(
He invited me to a hackathon that he was organizing for the company. He invited me to areas that I would've never experienced otherwise. And because of the introduction he gave to me to this world, I met a lot of people. I was very curious. I asked a lot of questions because that was so new to me that also it helped me in my development. So the conclusion I would say is that through not be shy to meet senior executive people who have much bigger job that you have, you don't know how they will help you to bring you to a next step in your career. So never miss an opportunity. And even if you don't have to speak about the job, you don't have to sell yourself. Just be curious about what they do.
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
What about you?
Rachael Hudson (
Well, kind of in terms of addressing the gender bias, I think sometimes it's hard to find a sponsor if you're in a male dominated company or industry. So I think there's a call to action for the women in this room where if you're in a leadership position is have you thought about offering? And extending that hand, there's a formal way to go about it and there's an informal way to go about it and somebody that might be looking up to, you might not have the courage to ask yet, but if they're in the room, maybe they will tomorrow. But are you actively thinking, who could I bring at the table? Who should be sitting at this table with me next year? I was lucky to, very fortunate to have a male sponsor in my life and I'm very grateful for that, but I feel like it's now on me to make sure that I do the same thing and pay it forward. I think we were talking about that on another panel. So in terms of addressing that kind of gender bias, I think it's on us to make sure that we are extending the hand.
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
Give me a favor. Oh, sorry, Go ahead.
Cilsy Harris (
I would just add to that be conscious and catch somebody being your sponsor. You may not know, I think you mentioned this in my career, I discovered my sponsors. It wasn't like I walked up to somebody and said, would you please be my sponsor? They acted as my sponsor first. But again, thinking about them and being empathetic towards them, do you take the time to when someone acts like that, to go to them afterwards and say, I really appreciated you doing that for me. I really appreciated you making space for me in this room. Some of us are sitting in rooms that are a hundred percent male and somebody's giving you space at the table and giving you a place to own who you are. You better follow up with them and engage them and start that long-term relationship with that individual because they put themselves out there for you in that moment.
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
So you fall half a sponsors, there are difference in a woman having a male or a female mentor sponsor. How do you feel about that?
Cilsy Harris (
Well, I think that there is a difference. And even with the multiple mentors and the multiple sponsors, you have know what you're looking for from each one of those relationships, just like all the other relationships in your life. And so a woman can give you the perspective of, I've been there, done this, this is how I've navigated this, this is the journey that I've been on. A man, however can also tell you the dynamics that have been in that room long before you got there, and that's really important as well. So I do think there's a difference. There's a value to both and if you embrace what comes out of both, you will grow significantly. Yeah,
Ann Allen (
Yeah. I would say that working in a mostly male dominated industry, I started out my career in it and morphed into underwriting and sometimes people say, how the heck did you get into underwriting? I don't know a thing about underwriting, but I lead a team of underwriters. It's just I guess what I demonstrated and people sponsoring me along the way. But as far as a male female, I do have to say I've had more male sponsors. And then to your point, I find myself ensuring that I am recognizing all the young females and helping them to cultivate their careers and putting them in positions to present on my behalf or take a few slides even though they're scared to death and they're very, very concerned about developing their skills. You got to champion those folks.
Valerie Turpin (
I never took attention whether I had female or male mentors or sponsors. Honestly, I was more interested into what they were doing, who they were, because I thought that all of them were very fascinating people. And for the mentors, I always came to a mentor, whether that was an assignment, a mentor that I find myself because I wanted the help for something. So for example, when I knew that I was coming to the United States, I wanted to be more international. I wanted to be able to present and interact and I've communications and I've a relationship in a way that was more international and less European. So that's why I asked mentorship for an American person who was living in Paris. I said, okay, let's reverse it. And it was quite interesting because I was also deferring the French lifestyle for him. So it was very interesting. Having said that, now that I'm a mentor and a sponsor, I would say that I'm probably a little bit more intentional with the young female colleagues or young female professional will reach out to me because I do know that there are multiple reason why it's a little bit more complicated. There's the usual 10% achievement versus 90% achievement before I ask a job.
(
And that the women on the 90% achievement spectrum. So I'm trying to be a little bit more intentional and close the gap, a little bit more mentoring on the confidence. You can do it a little bit more. But I do mentor also young male colleagues. And I'm also doing, maybe I adapt my mentoring style a little bit, I'm not sure. But what I really would like to do is really to give them the perspective from the other side, express what you want. And maybe I'm little bit more pushy maybe with the young female colleagues on that because I'm not sure they really want to say that. I said that's okay, but I was not really doing my own development really conscious about that. I think that now that I'm on the management side, I'm helping maybe a little bit more and a little bit more intentional with the young female workforce.
Rachael Hudson (
I would say really relating to you Valerie, is it didn't really matter actually if it was a male or a female. And then to sissy's point, it was actually, I didn't realize I had a sponsor until later. And that later was just a few months ago
(
When I had to make a call and said, oh, I just realized that you fit the definition of a sponsor, so thank you. But I think our company is actually built on meritocracy, which is the right person for the right role. And that applies not just for a job that you're seeking, but it really I think applies to what you are seeking for in your professional development and your career. Are you seeking guidance from somebody that has a title or are you seeking guidance from somebody that has the right position to promote you within a room or within a group of people? So I would take that kind of, is it a female or is it a male out of that and saying if am I seeking someone? And I think they both have their same merits. It goes back to kind of what is your purpose and objective and do you know that actually, which is an important point.
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
It's great. You have mentioned that you might have a sponsor, you might not know who they are until you realize, and this happens in your company. So some companies have a sponsorship programs and sometimes it works and some other seat doesn't. Right. So Rachael, continuing with you, what do you think that organizations can do to create and foster an environment that supports and promotes effective mentorship and sponsorship? And how do you think that companies really can nurture that culture to make it natural?
Rachael Hudson (
Yeah, so we talked about this on our panel prep where it probably depends on your company if you've got a formal structured environment specifically for mentorship or sponsorship, and I think we all kind of agreed on that panel, call it sponsorship is not really something that you can force or just match and say, Hey, take a survey. What are you looking to get? We're going to pair you together. And so I like the organic ways of getting to know people and meet people and are we vibing? Are we getting along? Is this going to be a relationship that works for both of us, right, for both the person, a mentor or a sponsor or coach and myself. But in terms of if there is no formal structure in place, it makes me excited that we're having these conversations at events like this to say, what are some questions I could ask my leadership team or my team or at my company?
(
It's just very simple. There's a lot of leadership development and talent development. We've talked about that today as well, and I think that's a good area to just raise your hand and ask and say, as part of this leadership development program, is there any discussion about sponsorship? Is there any kind of formal mentorship program that we might pair people up with? Well, you've got a young up and coming leader. You want to develop that talent, retain it. Is there something that we could enhance this leadership development program with? So I would say that from that less maybe smaller or companies that are just getting started to think about it, you can just ask that question. And the caveat of a leadership development or talent retention type program. Valerie, what do you think?
Valerie Turpin (
Not every job opening or posted on Glassdoor, LinkedIn or the intranet of the company because sometimes there are some ideas about some functions, some jobs, some needs in the company. But before it goes to actions and a job definition and is created, there are some talks and everything. So I do think that when you don't have a full sponsor or you don't really have someone who is your identified sponsor, the fact that you interact with every level of the company when that's happened, it's not necessarily very easy for everyone, but we all do holiday parties in our companies I guess, or other opportunities, do not hesitate to put you up front and to discuss and also express what you are thinking about what you'd like to do. I also usually tell the people I work with to, I can't read your mind. It's so much easier for me if you tell me what you want.
(
And there's absolutely no taboo about it, but I may know I may be in a conversation that we may want to create a function or we may want to extend in some areas and that has not translated it there. So I do think that this type of organic relationship get out but also express what you want to do will be very helpful to get your name to be ready when that will be created as a job opening and when there will be an opportunity and sometimes you create the opportunity yourself. We all have ideas about what else we can do in our company, what else we can offer to the company, and any senior managers can be interested and said, yeah, that's actually a very good idea. Do you think you can do it? Those happens very often. So I do think that it's very important also to put yourself on and communicate about what you want to do and meet people as much as possible. I know it's very sometimes uncomfortable, but many speakers before said that you don't have to speak about the job. You can speak about the new shoes, you can speak about anything, but as soon as you have a connection, you get recognized, your name is known and there are so many opportunities that can happen.
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
Ann what's your perspective?
Ann Allen (
So I would say MassMutual is a very large company. We have multiple business resource groups, one of which is a women's leadership group that I am part of very active in, and we have a structured mentoring program. And so you are assigned based on what you fill out on a survey, your needs and what you can provide or give based on whether you're a mentee or a mentor. Part of that I think is great, but then there's another part. If you don't have somebody to structure that for you, I would encourage you to just keep your eye out. When I sought a mentor before we had a structured business resource group, I watched women that I wanted to emulate. I saw that they were able to influence and command the room in a positive, insightful way, and I reached out to them just an email and said, if you have five minutes, I'd love to grab a coffee with you. It wasn't a structured a mentoring program, but I still keep in touch with those very successful women that have cultivated my career. So I would encourage you just reach out and email and have coffee and conversation
Cilsy Harris (
At the Hanover. As part of our journey for our business resource groups, we really looked at how effectively people of different demographics could get mentors. And actually it's very difficult for some. For some they have to get to that feeling of safety that I can put myself out there and I can start these relationships. So we actually joined forces across all the business resource groups. At the time, I was the sponsor of Mi Familia, the Hispanic Resource Group, Latino. And what we did was we actually got this piece, this software, it's called Mentor Click, and it actually has based on young psychology, the ability to match people based on what their personality strengths are and what they're trying to work on and matches blindly mentors and mentees. It has been tremendous, like we were keeping our fingers crossed, it has been very, very well received across the company. And what's so fascinating is I have had mentees in areas I would probably never have found and had great relationships. So there's this notion of finding and making sure you can find those that click with you, but also the opportunity to go completely outside your comfort zone and find those people that you could mentor. It's really powerful.
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
So we've been talking about finding mentors and a sponsor. So Valerie, with all your experience, what are for you the key elements to identifying, building and maintaining a successful mentoring relationship?
Valerie Turpin (
What I found very interesting when you start a mentoring relationship is you need to be in a safe place. Building the trust at the beginning is very, very important. So one of my mentor told me that, and I'm using that every time someone reach out to me to say, Hey, would you to be my mentor? I had a little conversation at the beginning to set the stage and I'm very committed to that. And I told them I'm very committed, so this is a safe space. Whatever you're going to tell me and whatever I'm going to tell you is like we are in therapy, I'm not going to tell anybody and you're not going to tell anybody either because I'm going to share as well. It's a two way relationship. So I'm also going to share what I'm doing right now and some of the challenge I'm doing right now.
(
So we have to establish this really safe environment and the trials to say that it stay between us. We can discuss about everything. If I think it's out of the boundary, I will also tell you, but it's safe. So I think it's important. What also I'm committed is that if we decide that we are going to talk with a certain frequency, whatever busy is my calendar, these meetings can't be moved, I will be the first one to tell my CEO, I'm sorry, I have a meeting here. I can't move it because it's important. I want also to show my mentee that I'm committed. So we have dedicated time, we all have busy schedule. So that's why I put them in my calendar because that's also my memory these days, but I put them there and I'm really committed that I'm not going to move them.
(
And I'm also a little bit expecting the same thing that we'll be there because we decided to do that. Also, when we do have a mentoring, we are speaking about what we want to discuss about and I do a little bit of follow up. I do a little bit of follow up. So make sure that we are consistent. It's not a coffee discussion for alpha an hour and then we forgot about it. So I do think that because of that, many people after we were in assigned mentorship program said, oh, can we continue? And I always said yes. I have also personally some mentors that I've had for more than 20 years. Some of them are bosses that retired now, but I still contact them, ask them some business question even if they're on the golf course and they have something else to do, but they pick up the phone and they're replying to me because I do think that we have this trust, we have this confidence, and also it goes two ways.
(
I'm committed, they are committed and we have helped each other at different time of the career, but also we build this solid foundation. So I do think that this little speech at the beginning to make sure that we are here on a committed way and then the conversation can go in many different ways, but because we have this commitment at the beginning, it's going to be solid. I had one time a mentee who wanted to discuss about what they have done on the weekend and I said, well, I'm very happy to understand what you have done on the weekend and we can discuss about that. But it's also a mentoring type of approach. So if you get something from that, that's great, but I need a little bit of more substance. So I do think that to articulate also that I also have some expectations was clear, but this level of trust was very important and I think that that's how I built my relationship over the time.
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
It's very interesting because you've talked about maintaining more mutual benefit, long-term relationships, sosi. What would be your advice here to be able to build, we have Valerie's perspective. What would be your advice to try be able to build those relationships
Cilsy Harris (
To be a long-term relationship
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
And not benefit?
Cilsy Harris (
Yeah, I mean the key word there is relationship. And that's really, really important that as you think about these, that you're there as much for your sponsor or your mentor as the other way around. It is a two-way street. So it is on you if you've engaged in that relationship to own it, to keep it going forward, to check in. I think about, I was talking with someone overly, if you see your sponsor or mentor has just had an organizational change that they either put in place or they're part of or what have you do, you pause and write to them and say, Hey, I saw this happening. Maybe we should catch up and talk about it. Show some interest in what's happening in their lives and what's happening with them. Not only can you learn from it, but again, you're in a relationship and so often I have seen people go, yeah, I don't know why it's not clicking with my sponsor or my mentor. And I'm like, are you only taking from that relationship if you aren't? The greatest character skill you're missing is building relationships and that's what you would be doing in this. So what I'd say,
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
So keeping all these importance in mind, can you share a personal experience Sie where having a mentor or sponsor have made a critical difference in your career
Cilsy Harris (
For certain? I actually shared this at lunch that I had gone through an organizational change when a new leader came in and it was quite confusing. They took my role, they split it in half. They gave the title of CIO to somebody else and I had this happening. What was interesting was that night as I was going home thinking about how I was going to process this and what was it going to mean for me and what were the personal and professional choices I had to make, I got the call from the president of our division, of a division that I supported, and literally he said to me, you need to tell me the minute this doesn't work for you. You are the heart and soul of my company. I care deeply about you. I know you care about my business and the minute it doesn't work, you let me know. Imagine the amount, how much I needed to hear that at that moment. And I don't mind sharing this. We all go through things in our careers, but that was a moment that created courage in me. It created clarity for me what was important, and I then defined my path forward, which I don't regret at all. It's been wonderful. So that's an example of when you don't know who your sponsor is, but he was literally putting his reputation on the line for me.
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
What about story, Valerie, coming back to you with all your growth and valuable experience, do you see any future trends in mentorship or sponsorship within the insurance industry that can help the audience?
Valerie Turpin (
Yes, we saw some statistics a bit earlier in one of the presentation, and
(
I do see more and more company interested into developing formal mentorship into their company. I do think that this is a really good trend. I do think that we should all encourage our companies to develop such programs to help to start at least with a structure for our colleagues or people new in the industry. We don't know where to start with. It's very complicated to start by understanding, okay, how do I find a mentor? What mentorship is about, what I can get from there? So the trend of companies recognizing this and helping to develop our arch insurance. We have a mentorship program that is towards actually more, it start with the early carrier people and the people who are at the beginning of their career. And we have something very different for the VPs and above, but it's really start by the early carrier. And I would encourage everybody to have this conversation with our companies because it's the best way to understand how it works and how to start it.
(
And after that you can seek your own mentors by yourself afterwards. But I do see this trend that is really recognized that we need help to start. And the benefits are great. We've seen a little bit of sponsorship developing as well, but it's a little bit more organic, as you said, Rachael, so it's a bit more complicated. But I do think that companies has evolved from the idea of coaches and really recognize that coaches are necessary, but mentors will really help in the complexity of our companies and the complexity of our work when you need to interact with multiple people, multiple different perspective, and you need someone to help you to navigate into the complexity of what the corporate world and the insurance industry is today. So I do see this trend. I encourage this trend. I think we should all push for it at least to help most of the people who are new in the industry to start somewhere. But it's not the end of the journey. We also can do with that ourselves.
Ann Allen (
That's great.
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
So final question for you all. What final advice would you give to emerging leaders in the audience about seeking mentors and sponsors who can actively advocate for their career growth? Ann would you like to start?
Ann Allen (
Yes. So I would say for me, I mentor multiple different people and I get as much from them as they get from me. So I am currently mentoring a very bright market researcher. Market researcher, okay. So she's talking about a product and how they do all the research before we bring a product to sell. And it was amazing to me. It was an area that I really didn't know much about. And so I think it's bi-directional mentor mentee, and we can learn as much from them as they can learn from us.
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
So true. Rachael, what would be your advice?
Rachael Hudson (
So my advice really would go to both ends.
(
There comes a time in your career where you can't just let your work speak for itself. So if you were at that stage and you're like, well, I'll just let my work speak for myself, and that's how I'll grow in advance, it might be time for you to seek out a mentor or a sponsor and be intentional about that. And the flip side is if you are in a position where you can be a mentor or a sponsor, are you noticing someone's work that they have not actively come to you and said, could you please mentor me or sponsor me through this? So it's on both ends of the spectrum is at every point in every person's career, man or woman is your work. You can't just let it speak for itself. You have to have an advocate. So either go ask for an advocate or go be that advocate is what I would close with for the advice.
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
What would be your advice?
Cilsy Harris (
Yeah, look at, none of us would've gotten dressed for the conference today without looking in the mirror. We all would look in the mirror and get that reflected back on us when we're talking about who we are and how we walk this earth. It's a little harder to do. So having a sponsor or a mentor or a coach there for you along the journey that can reflect it back is really what I would say is so very important for career growth.
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
Yeah, So true, Valerie.
Valerie Turpin (
Well, there are five sponsors on this stage are many more in this room. So you know what you have to do.
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
That's a great point. Okay, so we have a couple of minutes. Maybe we can take some questions. Who has any questions otherwise? For sure, you can talk with all of us after this session. No questions. Okay. One question.
Audience Member Juliet Peguero (
Hi, my question is, and I'm Juliet Peguero. My question is, does a sponsor have to be at an executive or senior or C level to really be that advocate for you
Cilsy Harris (
Or can that be at any level? What's your perspective? Mine is as long as they can influence the journey that you want to be on, that their voice is respected, that their voice is respected and heard and they can bring that capital to you. No, they don't have to be. And you can find them in all areas. Just know that that person you're counting on for your career growth and pick wisely.
Rachael Hudson (
Yeah, I would add to that, it doesn't have to be a title or a position of power. I think it has to be someone who is in a position of respect. People respect what that person says. And it could be a peer, could be a salesperson, could be a well-respected salesperson that just says, you know what? This person helped me at some point. Or I think we should bring this person into the conversation. So I would say less about title, although it does help. So we're not going to sit here and be like, well, yeah, I have your technical assistant go be your sponsor. But someone whose word and reputation is respected in the organization.
Cilsy Harris (
I actually believe I've had employees that have been my sponsors. Yes, yes. Just saying they're respected. So yeah,
Valerie Turpin (
There are people who are super connectors. So there are people who attract to other people who ask them question because they have a great understanding of cooperation and the industry. So they are the people who exchange ideas and connect people. So they are great sponsors and it's not related to a title or seniority. I still think that if you have very senior people in your network, they can also introduce you to other senior people. And it does multiply the visibility and the exposure. So I think that super connectors and also super senior people, get as many as you can because you don't know when they will be activated as a sponsor, when they will do their job. It can be tomorrow, it can be in 10 years, but at some point those people have these connections and they are magnet of others for asking question. They will do the job at some point.
Mireia Rojo Arribas (
Well, we are out of time. Thank you so much for your time and see you very soon. Talk to you later.